Power use/fighting?

Developing the gameplay and systems in Heroes and Villains

Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby AgentForest » Sun Jan 10, 2016 3:17 pm

I read something on the main news page about how there were some concerns by the team about how to handle melee and ranged damage in a way that fairly balances them in a game with such mobility. Because ranged people with travel powers could easily kite melee people.

I've actually been hoping to get into game design for a while because of issues like this, lol. Game balance is a struggle, but one of the best ways to do it is to build things around what you already know people are going to want to do.

For example, ranged people will want to just kite melee people all day. How do you compensate for that to give the melee people an edge? Well, we can assume some kiting will occur regardless of anything you do. Ranged moves and crowd control will be used to keep the melee person at bay for as long as possible. Where can we go from there? Well, work it into the passives of the melee classes.

  1. Perhaps all melee classes can get an ability that turns their next melee attack into a charge move. Activate it, and your next attack closes the gap before it executes, and deactivates travel abilities for a few seconds. This could provide some level of balance, but that still doesn't solve long battles, just initiation or re-engaging.
  2. When a crowd control move is used on a melee class, they gain a buff to their mobility power when the cc wears off. So stun someone who flies, and now they can fly faster to catch you when it wears off. It buys you time, but not as much as it would on a ranged character who doesn't need to catch up with you.
  3. Whenever a melee character takes ranged damage, their next attack will have boosted damage, stacking the more they are hit with ranged moves (to a certain point). They could store up their vengeance for when they finally get into range. Probably best to make this damage a flat amount per stack, so that using one's strongest move doesn't immediately KO someone in one hit. "Your next attack does 20 more damage per stack" or whatever works for your level, and all stacks are consumed when you finally get in range and hit them. You could even let different power sets for melee characters have unique effects for this, like how fire moves could apply a higher amount of damage per stack (30 instead of 20), but dealt over time. Ice could apply a slow on-hit, and because that helps them maintain proximity for more attacks, perhaps they use up only a few stacks at a time, but for a higher damage per stack than people who use the stacks up all at once (30 per stack, but only use 2 stacks per hit).

Just some brainstorming, obviously. I'm not trying to tell the devs how to do their jobs, lol. :) I just always felt that if you are making a game to involve PvP, you have to play into what people will obviously be doing anyway, and make incentives and counter-play where possible.
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Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby DisturbedOne21 » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:57 am

Its been a while since I was here last... Anyway not sure if this is the right forum to post this but I read somewhere and was linked a video regarding Perfect Imbalance and that City of Heroes apparently was great at this and I noticed that The Secret World followed a more or less similar system ANYWAY. From what I understand instead of creating a build that can beat every type of enemy (or players for those PVP likers) you kinda have to input some forms of strategy and thinking. Say you played a Fire Brawling Hero and you just beat a Mastermind but then when this Earth Brawler showed up, he beat the crap out of you. The Fire Brawler was basically a glass cannon and the Earth Brawler had an LOT of health and gave out a decent amount of damage needed to beat Fire Brawler.

i suck at explaining so maybe the video will help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w
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Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby Golden Girl » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:04 am

With a game like CoH, players had so much choice that it was pretty much impossible to balance it, and HaV won't be that different - our main goal with the power system is fun and challenge, not total balance.
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Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby DisturbedOne21 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:59 am

Wasn't asking for a total balance so fun and challenging is perfectly fine with me.
"All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy" - The Joker (Batman: The Killing Joke)

Always found Insane characters as awesome creations of the minds that made them the way they are. May them be a villain like Joker, an Anti-Hero like Deadpool. Hell Batman is something of a reluctant psycho. Either way, Uncle Ben might say with great power comes great responsibly. I'm more of a believer of the term with Great power comes great insanity. And yes i read tvtropes a lot.

OC Character: Daniel Cray AKA Disturbed Guy/The Black Death/The Grin (depending on which names would be active)
Born on 455 AD
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Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby plinkyplonk » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:17 pm

The imbalances promoted team work and the beauty of CoX is that you never had to wait too long for a team whatever class you played. It all worked (usually).
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Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby Exo-Buster » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:22 am

I'll speak on this as someone who plays a downright unhealthy amount of Warframe. I love Warframe, it's one of my favourite MMOs and was the one that really brought me back into free to play games after being burned by CoH's shuttering and finding World of Tank's community to be the actual worst (it's awful, the game itself is great but the WoT community is one of the worst in the entirety of gaming). Warframe of course is at the very high end of action in terms of the combat system; everything is extremely fast paced and generally combat has all the players bouncing around the map like super balls firing high damaging weapons and very visceral melee weapons.

But despite that, I wouldn't want every game to try and replicate Warframe's pace. HaV being more relaxed like CoH would allow it to try and find its own niche as well as give me something rather different for when I want to play something less intense. Fast and slow paced games have coexisted alongside each other since the days of the Atari, the advent of the RTS didn't kill off Turn Based Strategy games, and nor should extremely fast paced games like Warframe kill off the classic slower paced MMO.

The most I'd push the pace of the game towards the "actiony" end is asking for more power synergy than existed in CoH; I.E one power does a lot when you do it following another power in the list. It creates some more interactivity and thought into combat; and while I do really like the more synergetic Warframes (I <3 Nidus) I'd like to see what a game that gives players more than ten powers could do with synergy instead of just four.
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Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby Warhead » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:05 pm

Late to this conversation but jumping back to the earlier posts, I am not interested in the power charging system for fighting. If you look at the other "spiritual successors", I think you will find they are also more aligned to the CoH style of combat. I think you are on the right track. While it would be great to welcome new players, I will be fine playing with the great community from CoH that I know will be here.
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Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby Exo-Buster » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:22 pm

If I remember, some of the later power sets in CoH like street justice had synergy between the powers that made them very fun to use; as opposed to older power sets which tended to have little interaction between powers. At the very least; I remember a role play partner of mine (Misa May) who had a street justice using character who set up all these crazy looking combos that made me and my electric melee scrapper feel almost inadequate in comparison. I think generally speaking; most offensive power sets should have some degree of synergy between the powers. Though I think we can all at least agree we should avoid ever having powers in power sets that nobody uses if we can help it.
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Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby Blaze Rocker » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:18 pm

Exo-Buster wrote:If I remember, some of the later power sets in CoH like street justice had synergy between the powers that made them very fun to use; as opposed to older power sets which tended to have little interaction between powers. At the very least; I remember a role play partner of mine (Misa May) who had a street justice using character who set up all these crazy looking combos that made me and my electric melee scrapper feel almost inadequate in comparison. I think generally speaking; most offensive power sets should have some degree of synergy between the powers. Though I think we can all at least agree we should avoid ever having powers in power sets that nobody uses if we can help it.


In my process of making powers and sets I've done my best not to have any powers that I would consider useless. Possibly redundant, but not useless. ;) Everything I've made should be useful in one or more types of combat situations: solo, small team, large team.
When I played with the Force Field power set I usually found about half of the powers undesirable for my play-style. When building my own version I made sure to not just build powers that I wanted to use but to build abilities that the team would find useful in most situations rather than just rare ones. I kept the "must have" stuff, streamlined others for greater player control and efficiency and made some new powers with effects the original didn't have. I've also tried to keep things "realistic" when possible so the set doesn't do anything that you wouldn't think it should be able to do.
This is my approach to everything I design, though I expect to find I've missed the mark on an occasion or two. Fortunately there's still plenty of time for significant alterations and general tweaking, which includes the option to add chain-attacks to sets that didn't originally have them. When things start to pick up I hope to begin sharing my sets with the main dev group so I might be better able to give them, and you, more of what they want for their power sets, and less of what they don't.
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Re: Power use/fighting?

Unread postby Exo-Buster » Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:36 pm

Blaze Rocker wrote:
Exo-Buster wrote:If I remember, some of the later power sets in CoH like street justice had synergy between the powers that made them very fun to use; as opposed to older power sets which tended to have little interaction between powers. At the very least; I remember a role play partner of mine (Misa May) who had a street justice using character who set up all these crazy looking combos that made me and my electric melee scrapper feel almost inadequate in comparison. I think generally speaking; most offensive power sets should have some degree of synergy between the powers. Though I think we can all at least agree we should avoid ever having powers in power sets that nobody uses if we can help it.


In my process of making powers and sets I've done my best not to have any powers that I would consider useless. Possibly redundant, but not useless. ;) Everything I've made should be useful in one or more types of combat situations: solo, small team, large team.
When I played with the Force Field power set I usually found about half of the powers undesirable for my play-style. When building my own version I made sure to not just build powers that I wanted to use but to build abilities that the team would find useful in most situations rather than just rare ones. I kept the "must have" stuff, streamlined others for greater player control and efficiency and made some new powers with effects the original didn't have. I've also tried to keep things "realistic" when possible so the set doesn't do anything that you wouldn't think it should be able to do.
This is my approach to everything I design, though I expect to find I've missed the mark on an occasion or two. Fortunately there's still plenty of time for significant alterations and general tweaking, which includes the option to add chain-attacks to sets that didn't originally have them. When things start to pick up I hope to begin sharing my sets with the main dev group so I might be better able to give them, and you, more of what they want for their power sets, and less of what they don't.


Looking at warframe, powers that fell into the "never use this" junk pile tended to be the following:

A: Damage powers that don't properly scale with enemies, which always makes them useless at high level play because flat damage doesn't handle late game content very well in the slightest.
B: Overly finnicky powers that basically required some kind of "perfect scenario" to be useful.
C. Powers that require too much set up for their pay off.
D: Weird powers that don't particularly fit with the theme and playstyle of the Warframe encouraged by its other stats and powers and/or just plain synergize poorly with the rest of the set.

I think we can avoid falling into those pitfalls with just some oversight and stress testing things out during playtesting.
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