Lore and Story General Discussion

General discussion for the lore and story development of the game

Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby Golden Girl » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:39 pm

This thread is for general discussions about the lore and stories in "Heroes and Villains".
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Re: Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby Darkaiser » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:17 am

Ok...what do we have to work with? By that I mean what, if anything, is set already? To avoid duplicate posts, this goes for all three Lore threads just started.

What do we have an what do we need?

If there are any links to official canon then please drop those in here please.
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Re: Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby Golden Girl » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:51 am

I'll be posting a lot more info during the next few days, as quite a bit of the existing stuff on the website has been revised over the past few months, including the city map.

But for now, if you want to just post ideas, then that's fine too.
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Re: Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby Darkaiser » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:26 pm

Ok...you asked for it (sorry if this rambles...been sitting on it for a year now):

In the Beginning: Historically speaking, we had Supers but they were called Heroes or Gods. Those rare few with powers beyond those of mortal men. How many of the old myths and legends were actually Supers? No one can say for sure. Back then magic was a real force spurred on by the belief of many and the capabilities of a very few.

Then Magic Faded: With the coming of modern religions and a more enlightened age the old gods fell from grace. Without followers to believe in them many lost their powers and faded into the mists of time.

Terrible War: Then, in the early decades of the 20th century, new heroes began to appear. These were not the gods of old but men, dressed in costumes to conceal their identities. Criminals responded in kind and before WWII there were many known 'Masked Villains' and 'Masked Heroes' to fight them. Science advanced in leaps and bounds and, unknown to many, magic had made its return...

Science Amok: The ruthless scientists of the Nazi regime made huge strides with terrible experiments. By the time America had entered the war there were already 'Ubermenschen' striding the battlefields. Many more secretly plotted and sabotaged and it was these that were fought on the Home Front by the earliest heroes. Many of these received their powers through science but the Thule Society, Hitler's secret cult, had been gathering magical artifacts for years. Somehow, they tapped into these latent magical energies and awoke something terrible.

Curse of Pandora: The mythical Pandora's Box had been part fable...and part warning. Member's of the Thule Society found this ancient treasure and, in an attempt to end the war in their favor, opened it. Until now, the number of people in the world with true Powers could be counted on two hands. Suddenly all the ills of the world were unleashed and they were terrible to behold. Pandora's Curse awoke the dormant genetic code in Mankind promoting rampant mutation. It also kindled the fires in the minds of geniuses, enabling them to reach ever higher with their experiments. It reawakened the old magic in the world and set it loose to find places to lurk and feed. Worst of all, it reached far into space where it attracted the attention of races unknown to Man.


Note that this is very rough and as yet incomplete. However I wanted to get feedback before moving on.

Essentially, I blame the majority of the heroes and villains in the world on Pandora's Box. The opening of this box explains why scientists were suddenly able to expand their horizons, why mutations suddenly began cropping up, why magic was reawakened and why alien races suddenly started to take note of Earth.

So...what do you think for a rough start?
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Re: Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby Golden Girl » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:38 am

Darkaiser wrote:Ok...you asked for it (sorry if this rambles...been sitting on it for a year now):

In the Beginning: Historically speaking, we had Supers but they were called Heroes or Gods. Those rare few with powers beyond those of mortal men. How many of the old myths and legends were actually Supers? No one can say for sure. Back then magic was a real force spurred on by the belief of many and the capabilities of a very few.

Then Magic Faded: With the coming of modern religions and a more enlightened age the old gods fell from grace. Without followers to believe in them many lost their powers and faded into the mists of time.


This fits with our general "two ages of superpowers" outline, especially using old mythologies to provide examples of ancient supers.
One of the concepts for the first age of superpowers is tied to the idea of genetic inheritance of power - that's why all the ancient heroes seem to have at least one divine parent, and why a a natural process of genetic dilution over the generations though demigod heroes interbreeding with normal mortals would lead to powers simply fading from the world.
It also explains why the Atlanteans still retain superhuman abilities, which they inherited from their ancestor, the Titan Atlas. Atlantis sank 12,000 years ago after a catastrophic war with the dark and sinister Lemurian civilization, which was also destroyed - but through the actions of the Atlantean technomages, remnant of Atlantis managed to survive as an underwater realm, and remained isolated from the rest of the world until the start of World War II, when the threat of Nazi U-boats and the wider threat to the whole world from the Nazis led to Atlantis joining the Allies.
But because they'd been isolated for so long, they'd not interbred with normal mortals, and hadn't suffered any fading of their Titan/divine DNA.

Terrible War: Then, in the early decades of the 20th century, new heroes began to appear. These were not the gods of old but men, dressed in costumes to conceal their identities. Criminals responded in kind and before WWII there were many known 'Masked Villains' and 'Masked Heroes' to fight them. Science advanced in leaps and bounds and, unknown to many, magic had made its return...


This fits with the two ages concept, being the start of the new age of powers.

Science Amok: The ruthless scientists of the Nazi regime made huge strides with terrible experiments. By the time America had entered the war there were already 'Ubermenschen' striding the battlefields. Many more secretly plotted and sabotaged and it was these that were fought on the Home Front by the earliest heroes. Many of these received their powers through science but the Thule Society, Hitler's secret cult, had been gathering magical artifacts for years. Somehow, they tapped into these latent magical energies and awoke something terrible.


Nazi super-science fits with this concept - viewtopic.php?f=40&t=445#p4590

Curse of Pandora: The mythical Pandora's Box had been part fable...and part warning. Member's of the Thule Society found this ancient treasure and, in an attempt to end the war in their favor, opened it. Until now, the number of people in the world with true Powers could be counted on two hands. Suddenly all the ills of the world were unleashed and they were terrible to behold. Pandora's Curse awoke the dormant genetic code in Mankind promoting rampant mutation. It also kindled the fires in the minds of geniuses, enabling them to reach ever higher with their experiments. It reawakened the old magic in the world and set it loose to find places to lurk and feed. Worst of all, it reached far into space where it attracted the attention of races unknown to Man.


Note that this is very rough and as yet incomplete. However I wanted to get feedback before moving on.

Essentially, I blame the majority of the heroes and villains in the world on Pandora's Box. The opening of this box explains why scientists were suddenly able to expand their horizons, why mutations suddenly began cropping up, why magic was reawakened and why alien races suddenly started to take note of Earth.[/quote]

This is the part that could be a problem - not because Pandora's Box was used as a concept in CoH - it's more that the single source of most superpowers is getting into Well of the Furies territory, and while that's not really an issue copyright-wise, the response of the community to the Well could best be described as "mixed", so i'm not sure that imposing that kind of lore plot point on HaV players would go down too well.
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Re: Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby Darkaiser » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:41 am

"This is the part that could be a problem - not because Pandora's Box was used as a concept in CoH - it's more that the single source of most superpowers is getting into Well of the Furies territory, and while that's not really an issue copyright-wise, the response of the community to the Well could best be described as "mixed", so i'm not sure that imposing that kind of lore plot point on HaV players would go down too well."

A good thing I threw that out early then. It's a very non-traditional idea and you're right...I had forgotten the Well from CoH.

However I feel that we might need something to explain Mutants since they will likely be very prolific. A simple 'increase in the level of global radiation from all of the 2200 atomic and nuclear devices detonated throughout the world' would be the simplest solution. The level rose until it reached a tipping point, releasing something in the Human DNA.

I like the Atlanteans...built-in undersea adventure there.

Do you have any thoughts on alien races? I'm thinking that the Tunguska Blast in 1908 in Russia was a probe from another world that got a little too close. The Russians dug it up and hid it...until now...
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Re: Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby MrManhattan » Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:41 am

I would avoid the "Some thing magic"caused it all origin. CoH used it with the well and while Champions online hasn't said much about it, it's the explanation for supers in the Champions rpg ip. Single origins can be fun in specific settings but in a world that's suppose to be kind of an "average" comic book world it's limiting.

Now I think the tunguska blast could be used as a cool explanation for mutants. Take the afore mentioned alien probe idea and say it released some thing that started slowly altering humanity or at least some of humanity. So by WWII you'd have a bunch of folks that where kids when it happened grown and developing powers.
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Re: Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby Darkaiser » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:09 pm

MrManhattan wrote:I would avoid the "Some thing magic"caused it all origin. CoH used it with the well and while Champions online hasn't said much about it, it's the explanation for supers in the Champions rpg ip. Single origins can be fun in specific settings but in a world that's suppose to be kind of an "average" comic book world it's limiting.

Now I think the tunguska blast could be used as a cool explanation for mutants. Take the afore mentioned alien probe idea and say it released some thing that started slowly altering humanity or at least some of humanity. So by WWII you'd have a bunch of folks that where kids when it happened grown and developing powers.



Nice idea...better than the 'general radiation level' thing because it allows for at least one generation to be born. Also makes more wiggle room for Mutants during WWII.
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Re: Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby Exo-Buster » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:17 pm

What's our stance on ancient astronaut type scenarios in any case? I may have some ideas for Forerunner/Chozo esque precursor civilizations who may have left a thing or two on the planet.
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Re: Lore and Story General Discussion

Unread postby Golden Girl » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:36 pm

For trigger events, there still needs to be an opening for supers to have appeared at an earlier point - and this also goes back to another controversial bit of CoH lore - the "Origin of Power" arc - http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Percy_Winkl ... n_of_Power

The biggest example of how to write a trigger event that will annoy several players and invalidate a lot of character concepts is the bit that Sister Psyche says about mutants:

"Mutants first began appearing after 1938. This date is important because it's the same year that the first atom was split. Many believe that this division in a single atom somehow rippled through all the atoms and created a divide on what was once normal to create something else - something mutant."


That's basically telling players with mutant character concepts that have them existing before 1938 that they're "wrong".

What we should be looking to do with any trigger events is to make sure that whatever is being triggered still existed in some form before the trigger event - while the first age of superpowers ended with the ancient gods and heroes, supers didn't disappear - they became far less frequent, and their powers were often weaker.
So for the suggested Tunguska Event trigger, it should be presented as producing an massive upsurge in human mutations, rather that starting human mutations.

Magic is another good example - in the first age of powers, you have things like the war between the Olympians and the Titans, where they were throwing mountains at each other, or that story where Zeus trapped giant monster by dropping a volcano on it - that level and frequency of magical activity obviously dropped off pretty sharply once that age ended.
But if you look at something like the Arthurian stories, then you've got a situation where although the majority of the heroes are Natural origin Broadsword Scrappers and Tanks, there are still people like Merlin, Morgana Le Fay and the Lady of the Lake around, plus various magical objects, places and events, so even after the end of the first age of powers, Magic origin characters would still be around - they'd just be alot less common and usually a lot less pwoerful.
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